Community Meeting Transcript

Speaker A: Hello, hello. Hello, hello.

Pablo: Everyone starting in a couple minutes, I guess.

Daniel: Yeah, I think we'll just join… Uh, wait for a few more people to join, and then we'll get started. Shall we… Do you think we should get started now or another couple of minutes

Speaker A: Yeah.

Daniel: Uh, okay. Um, welcome everybody, um, uh, to the Thursday meeting. Um, so we have an agenda for today. I'll be the host again this, uh, this week. Um, I think, yeah, Daniela is here. Uh, so we're gonna start with a, uh, uh… And hopefully we'll have the recording this time, uh, uh, for notes. Uh, we're gonna start with a production update from Daniela, so I'm gonna hand over to Daniela right away to talk about how production is going.

Daniela: (laughs) Okay. Um, okay. So I just joined this week to start, um, uh, working on this. So basically the beginning of everything is to gather, uh, to create our own database again. So I'm doing right now like a brain dump on the information from last year, all of the things that I remember and that I… The things that I worked on. And, uh, basically to start contacting vendors and see where they're at, uh, try to reach them again, like the people we have worked in the past. So I'm using like the public information that's on, like their websites and the companies, all the stuff that is public to try to reach the people. So, um, I wanted to show a bit, um, what I've been working on. Uh, so I've started with the main, uh, vendors who are like the most critical for the event to happen. I have contacted, uh, contacted them already. We already received one quote, and three were in the making today. Um, the idea is to continue doing this li- list and reaching all of the people, uh, that we have worked with in the past. Um, so it's a little bit looking like this. The idea is to have the request, like the quotes, and then when we get them, we know how much money we need right now and how much things are gonna cost. So this will feed the budget. Um, I'm doing a dump also in the, um, timeline of things. So what we did last year, and starting from there, uh, I can do this, my week like this. So it kind of starts looking like a project that has specific tasks that start and finish and when they are done. Uh, also, we have an overview of the stuff that we need for the permit and the compliance side of things. So a basic list of the things that we need to, uh, contact and do, and that it's already in progress. So we… Uh, Jorge is, is gonna be doing the permit. He has done so like for the past years. He has good relationship with the, um, local authorities, he's already in contact with them to… He's gonna reach out to the mayor to start working on the negotiations for, for now. And, yeah, basically these are all of the tasks that we need to do. These are the things that are needed for inspection. So kind of to have a clear, uh, like guide of all of the things that we need to do. Um, right now, I think the most important is this, so we can have like a overview of how much things cost (laughs), and then basically to reach out to people and say, "Hey, we're here. We're up for the, uh, making of this event, uh, happen again." And yeah, people in general are very excited. Uh, for them, it's very transparent, I think. It's just the changing of the organization that produces the event. Uh, but the idea that the event stays the same is there. They're happy to work with us. It's a, it's a great, um, activity that happens locally for the town and for all of the vendors around there. So, yeah, I think the focus right now would be doing that, uh, and also gathering, like, the needs, uh, from departments. So how can I stop sharing this? Okay. So, uh, right now it's like a brain dumping stage with, where I'm organizing all of this stuff. Um, I have a pretty good and clear idea of what's needed and how we can make it happen. Um, and yeah, uh, we are pretty much on track. I was checking the stuff that… my notes from last year, and we are on the same timeline, so we definitely… we were able to do it last year, we definitely can do it this year again. Um, what else? Yeah, we have a lot of learnings as well from last year, so I think, uh, this will be very organized. We have many, um, stuff that probably we didn't have in the past that are really compliant with the law, and the fact that we have a clean slate just gives us, gives us the opportunity to, you know, start fresh with all of the things that are needed and all of the requirements of the law (laughs), so we can do our major event. From my perspective, we have like separate things. So we have operations, which is like all of the infrastructure and the things that are needed to make the event happen, uh, legally (laughs), and you know. Then we have the event itself, which basically depend on the people in the community and everybody who wants to partake in that. Um, so yeah. I think the… all of… like, from my experience last year, all departments are pretty clear on what they do and how they have done things, you know, with time. Knowledge that is passed from leads to new leads, and everybody's like really aware of the things that are needed and the projects they do and that they wanna do. Uh, right now, uh, we just gotta like get back together (laughs). So if you… I, I don't have anyone's contact or… uh, because all of that stuff, I worked with, um, with NORC last year, so all of that stuff, it's in those computers and phones that I don't have since August last year. Um, so if you can reach out to me, I'm here. I'm on Discord as well. Uh, if you need something for your department that you think, um, you wanna check if it's already on the list or anything you think is super important that we tackle right now, just let me know. Just for the major things, we have the quotes for the cabins, which was a major headache last year. Uh, we have, uh, the quotes for… the Red Cross are being done and in process. We have also the quotes for the generators, like all of the stuff that make the event happen and run. So, I think it's the… we're on really good track. Permits is already also on track. The Comarca is really happy to help us and hold our hand throughout the process and tell us all of the things that we need (laughs). So I think it's good news all around.

Daniel: Thank you, Daniela. And, uh, I wanna apologize, I've been a terrible host not even introducing properly Daniela. Uh, for those who don't know, Daniela, uh, was doing, uh, quite a lot of production last year, um, and so she, uh… um, she made up for the fact that I didn't introduce her properly by displaying her competence there. Uh, (laughs) so thank you for that. Uh, she clearly knows, knows what she's doing and, uh, it's absolutely fantastic to be working with her. Um, I'll move on to the next agen-… I guess we'll take questions at the end. So-

Daniela: Oh, one thing that I forgot. Sorry to interrupt.

Daniel: Oh.

Daniela: Um, the idea of this that I'm doing is to also leave like a database that can be public and accessible for anyone. So, the idea is like, in the future, whoever needs it has it. And also, it can be more independent in the sense that, you know, we can reduce the amount of potentially workers that we need to make this happen locally or something like that. So, if you have anything that you would like to add or that you think should be there, also reach out and let me know.

Daniel: Cool. Thank you very much. And for the next item, uh, it will be myself. Uh, I'm just gonna take us through the barrio survey, uh, which I first wanna say that it was absolutely amazing to see the response of the barrios. I, I tried to get in touch with people within like two hours. I had loads of people contacting me and making sure they were easily contactable. And then, uh, we've had something like 100 answers to the, to the, the survey. Uh, not all of them from barrios, but some of… some barrios had many answers, uh, which (laughs) was really great to see the enthusiasm. And we will be publishing these results. Um, we've already agreed at the board meeting that just happened that we'll publish the results. We just need to like, you know, review them and, um, and, and put them on the website. But in the meantime, uh, if I can figure out how to share… Where is it? Is it in the More? Oh, yeah. Share. There you go. Um, if I can just share my screen. Um, hopefully, um, you are able to see this. Uh, just as a disclaimer, this is a quick AI generated summary. I gave it the CSV of the, the survey, I got it to make a, a, a, a version of it as a presentation. And, um, I, like, anonymized it, uh, and then removed the personal names. Um, specifically, we had, um… And so, the big picture is, um, so some barriers we had both yes and don't know. Um, so I've kind of made two charts there, one optimistic. If all the barriers that said yes and don't know turn out to be yes, then that's the amount of people connected to barriers that seem to be optimistic that they'll turn up. If all the yeses, uh, yes plus don't know turn out to be don't knows, this is the spread so it's slightly more pessimistic. But there is, uh, quite a lot of barriers that are very positive. Um, there are 24 definite yeses, nine mixed barriers, and nine don't knows, and one no. Um, the… Like, here you can see a chart of the, the, the, the top, uh, 16 by size that have said, uh, uh, yes. Uh, as a kind of funny aside, uh, The Garden of Joy, uh, I believe Marco has already announced that he's going to do one of his 60th birthday parties at Nowhere, so he's definitely a hell yes. Um, there was some analysis of the reasons people gave for being, uh, undecided. Uh, lead shortage was quite common. People, um, like, so lead transitions, uh, so people, um… Camps where the lead is changing and they don't know who's gonna be the next lead. The events uncertainty was also a big one. Um, uncertainty makes it easier for fencers to say no. There is some amount of fatigue and a desire for break year from several camps. Um, there are some logistics, um, issues and there are some issues with people going to other events. Um, there are people who are against skipping and people who are for skipping. So some voices are saying, "Skipping will lose a lot of participants. Uh, keeping the annual pilgrimage gives more stability." Um, I mean, you can read these for yourselves and these will be also on the website once I publish this. There are people who are also saying that long-term viability is paramount and a skip year can hurt short term but long term can be healthy. So there's, there is a mixed of, mix of perspectives, although, uh, a majority of yeses. Uh, there were some questions that people feel, um, need to be answered. What's holding us back? They don't feel this was transparently communicated. Will there be power on site? Uh, because there's a question about whether Ubertown will attend and they provide, they've provided electricity for, uh, quite a lot of camps. How will container fees change? Are there gonna be low income tickets? Is there gonna be an updated barrier guide? Those are sort of practical questions. People stated roughly when they need to, uh, to know. Generally, there's a sense of urgency. We need to get as, uh, sort of clear go or no-go as soon as possible. Um, the key takeaways, again, according to Claude. So this is, this is not written by a human but it is an extract from the comments and the results. There's a solid base that's quite strong. Claude seems to believe the swing group is persuadable 'cause they mostly need event certainty and clear communications. The biggest risk that Claude identified is uncertainty causing people to commit elsewhere, which increases uncertainty and sort of creates a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. And multiple respondents explicitly flagged this. Ubertown, whether they attend or not, and how we deal with the power, uh, is a factor here. And there was a lot of expressions of gratitude and support from many respondents. Even undecided camps are rooting for the event to happen. So with this, I'll stop sharing. And I'll move on to the next item on the agenda, which is… Uh, do we have Ella O'Kait on the call? I'm not sure we do. There was a kind of question.

Speaker A: Ella just joined. (laughs)

Daniel: Ella just joined. Okay, so she's, she's… Maybe let's give Ella a moment to, uh, get things together. Maybe we can get a demo of the Humans app from Peter first and then move on to Ella. That might make sense. Peter, are you ready to go? Are you muted?

Peter: Need to unmute. Um, first off, the, the context for this. Um, Ben has been a hero lately as, uh, of receiving everybody's signups and been managing that fairly manually. Um, that is painful. I've seen his system. Um, he's doing an amazing job. But managing, you know, roughly hundreds of people going through that is, is not awesome on something that should be done, uh, uh… Like, not awesome to be doing on a manual perspective. Um, it also has a bunch of challenges and manual steps. Um, adding people to drives, adding people to shared files, adding people to Google Groups, adding… Keeping track of what version of legal documents that people signed off on. These are all kind of, like, like, just painful things. Um, so to that end, um, I decided (laughs) sort of, um, to have a go at making this, um, app. The gist is… Um, and this is a… You can all see this, right? Yeah. The, uh… This is a beta version running on my, like, Nook at home. Um, but the gist is, uh, a way to manage your relationship, your human relationship with the association. Um, this has a basic Google signup. We need to know your Google anyway because we have a Google Drive and everything is kind of Google infused at the moment. Um, that could change in the future. But for now, that's the way it is. Um, when you join, you'll get a little bit more introduction because you need to make a profile. Profile needs a name, uh, needs enough that we know that you are a human that is related to our organization. Um, in my case, my profile has this much in it. Um, I put in, I'm Amsterdam. You don't have to. That was just… I added it. Um, I put in birthday just to be fun. Um, a minimal burner CV, um, and you can add contact information as you see fit. Obviously, your login email is required 'cause we need to know who you are. Uh, but if you wanna add other ways to contact you, that would be great. Um, the first thing it'll force you to go through though is a consent cycle. Um, so everybody has to read our… basically, our volunteer… our volunteer policy. This is basic GDPR stuff, I can show you it. Um, it's GDPR, it's, um, creative comments for documents, anything you contribute to the organization. Um, it's available in five languages. The Spanish one is legal. Um, and when you agree to it, it keeps track and, uh, audit… only database of when you did. Um, if we update… if we do update this document, which will happen, um, then everybody will have to re-, um, acknowledge the new document, the new version. Um, just FYI. Beyond that, it has team management. Um, I haven't put all the teams in here, but we have a few special teams. Associados are voting members, board is the board, volunteers is everybody, leads is anybody that's been declared a lead for a team. Um, and the only custom group I made right now is Geeks. We can make more teams later. You can see that button here for the board to do. Um, from there though, you get… it's a team. Um, teams can have resources on them. Teams can have legal documents associated with them, i.e. the volunteer team has the volunteer policy on it. So that, that's how we force volunteers through it. I can imagine that the leads team will have a policy around spending, right? So if we give them people authorization to be able to spend money for the organization, we'll need to have a little bit of a policy for that, that people agree to. Um, the board is probably also gonna have an extra one for PII, so personal identifiable information. We need to be extra careful with things like that. Um, it's another reason this app exists. This is one place where that data can go, where it's protected and relatively safe. It's not spread across 50 different Google docs on 10 different drives and, you know, people's personal folders. Um, beyond that, it has a bunch of admin functions to manage the things behind the scenes. Um, and it has a, uh, the Apply to be an Associado button. It's currently disabled because we don't have the legal things ready for that. Um, but that is where we'll go to get the voting members when that is ready. Um, that is the gist. If people do want to look at it, it is available at humans.n.burn.camp. Um, let me… does anybody have questions while I'm showing it? I know I talk fast.

Daniel: So to be clear, like, because people might have missed that, this will automatically manage the Google Drive permissions, right?

Peter: Yes. Yeah. So the attention here is, you come in, you sign up, you say who you are, um, you… We, we need to know that you're not a random person from, from Bulgaria. Um, I mean, well, you know, we might like random people from Bulgaria, but you know what I mean. Um, and then we approve you as a volunteer, and then you have access to the system. The volunteer itself, drive… will have, likely give… automatically give you access to the volunteer drive, which is basically the association drive. Um, and if we have any other specific requests for, um… if we need privacy for, like, the consent team or things like this, then those teams will have resources associated specifically with them, that this app will manage both adding people to their resource and removing two people from the resource when they are no longer a part of that team, um, at some point down the road. Um, yeah. Yeah, that's the… that's the gist on that. Does that make sense? Um, Ben wanted me to note as well, we talked about having auto importing the data that he has received from people so far and think… my, my thought on that was, it'd be a little bit weird for us to be filling in your data in a way that could be public to other people in the system. Like, you can actually say in your… in your profile, I want to… I want to add my WhatsApp number or my phone number, right? Uh, +31 61334567, um, and make it available to all active members. So that would now show up on here as something other people would see. We decided it wouldn't be a good idea for somebody to be doing that for you. Um, so we're likely going to mail back, um, the… some of the… some people actually wrote rather detailed, like, bios and, and what they wanted to do to help with us, help the system. Um, so Ben's likely gonna figure out a way to mail people back their individual results so they can contribute it into… copy paste it back into here. Um, yeah. The other point we want to note, we'll likely have a volunteer coordinator who has access to see people's contact info beyond, like, the normal sharing, just to be able to, like, help people get on board into the organization and into the teams as appropriate for what their skills and interests are. Uh, but we wanted to note that out, that we aren't surprising people by giving their private information to somebody they didn't know. Uh, yeah. Does anybody have any questions?

Speaker F: I, I have a tiny suggestion.

Peter: Sure.

Speaker F: Just as… um, uh, from previous things, as well as having their contact info, if it's gonna be used by volunteer coordination, emergency contact info is really, really useful because when you need it, you fucking need it quick (laughs). And we've had that problem before.

Peter: That's great feedback. I'm happy to add that. That's super easy to add. It's easy to keep it private and board only can see it, kind of thing. Um, and yes, the, the other reason… part of the reason behind this is to have a place to put those things, um, that we consider safe, and it isn't just a Google sheet on a drive, um, because those can cause incidents. And like, I think… uh, we basically trust people, but sometimes people make mistakes and even like BCCing or even CCing a whole list of people on an email can cost the organization thousands of euros in fines. So that's really a lot of why this is trying to be, like, a little bit safe about that. Um, I hope it's easy enough to use. If people have challenges, let me know. Um, I'm happy… hope… the goal right now is to have this probably out on Sunday… humans.nobodies.team.

Daniel: It's absolutely fucking amazing. (laughs) Like, it's great. Uh-

Peter: It's been a couple long nights on the side of other things I've been working on, but yeah, thank you.

Daniel: It's really fantastic. Um, I think Kate has joined. Um, so maybe Kate and Ella, or just Kate, can talk about, um, the Go NoGo process that they're designing, uh, next. Assuming-

Peter: Yeah.

Daniel: … they're… Yeah.

Kate: Hi, everyone. Um, cool. So, uh, earlier this week, basically, um, a group formed called the Governance Working Group. And it, currently its members are myself, um, and Ella Teller, who's also here, I think. Um, we're looking for a couple more people, which I'll get into in a moment. Um, basically our objective is to… We're a community-led initiative to help structure the decision of whether Nowhere-like event should go ahead in 2026. Uh, we seek to be non-partisan and objective. We don't hold an opinion as to whether the event should go ahead or not, um, and aim to be credibly neutral. Um, and our objective is to ensure the, the community has all the right or relevant information to help make a good decision about this for 2026. Um, yeah, we've got a bit of expertise. We've looked at the statutes. We've understood what kind of, uh, decision type the switch should be. But our plan is to make it as participatory as possible and get a lot of input from people in the community and to do quite a in-depth kind of a vote or a temperature check. Um, and yeah, so we've just started, so we don't have everything, um, planned yet exactly. We're collecting information to design this process. Um, you can follow, uh, uh, what we're doing in the governance channel, and I'll make regular updates there. But we, we do need to move pretty fast, obviously, because, um, it would be great to have like a very clear yes or, or no pretty quickly. Um, so we're being supported by Bambi, who's the co-lead from Bread & Tomato, in a project management capacity. And we definitely need like maybe a fourth and maybe a fifth member. Would be great to have someone with a lot of extensive expertise in process design and governance, decentralized governance. So if you know someone, please let me know. Um, and we've got a whole bunch of like, uh, draft non-negotiables. Like what do we absolutely need to have sorted for this event to be, to go ahead, to be safe, and to be, to not, not incur a huge financial loss? Um, so yeah, that's where we're at currently. It's, yeah… So any comments or questions on that?

Daniel: Um, I think, I think we might want to go through the agenda first and then do the, the, the questions. Um, so if you have questions, I mean you can always ask the questions in chat, and, uh, probably somebody will answer long before we get to the Q&A. But, um, I think it would be better if we go through the agenda. There's still a few items, and then-

Kate: Okay.

Daniel: … we can get to the questions. Um, so the next item in the agenda is a GNSL transition update. Uh, possibly no container access question, which Pablo, uh, I think will take.

Pablo: Yes, thank you. Let me put this… All right, so basically I'm gonna start with the requirements. Um, can you see? Can you see this slide? Yes, I think so. So basically where we are in general in the association is we did the incorporation, the bylaws. We have a, an elected board. We've done some preliminary work on budget, on what kind of taxes to apply, what is the situation, some of the event needs. Obviously there's much more coming. Um, and where we're at now, um, kind of as, um, as a dependency for next steps, is we need a tax ID. Um, because it's so recent, it was just mailed, so that tax ID is now traveling (laughs) to our lawyer's office. Uh, once they have it, with that we will be able to open the bank accounts. And it's the only document that we're missing to open the bank accounts. So yeah, hopefully we're having to have this ready by next week. Um, once we have that, we'll have, uh, basically the ability to start managing money, which will enable things like selling tickets, paying vendors, receiving donations and other things, other fun things that we'll be able to do in the future. So hopefully we have a few, an event, um, sorry, an update in a few days about this. Um, regarding the transition with, uh, Going Nowhere. So as a reminder, Going Nowhere currently holds, um, some assets that would be valuable for an event that we could organize from the association. Some of those are about 15 containers, um, that contain different materials and things useful for an event. Um, they hold, uh, ownership of trademarks for Going Nowhere and Nowhere Festival, and I think there was one more. I think it was Nowhere Event, um, which we cannot use, uh, as we don't own it, but we could acquire. Um, they have intellectual property for things like mailing lists, uh, to reach people, consent lists, um, internal documents with useful procedures to run an event. So the association is evaluating an acquisition for assets, although that has its own, uh, legal dependencies. So, Going Nowhere SL has been getting legal advice regarding whether the implications of the audit, privacy regulations, and how this impact a potential transfer. So basically, the assets are with them. Uh, there's an interest to acquire them. And we have already had a few meetings together, um, to learn things like what will it take to organize a successful event, what are some kind of minimum quality requirements that we would want to uphold, um, learnings from what audits might require, what financial requirements are there. So we're currently meeting at least every Monday. There's been a few more meetings than that in the last weeks. Um, and updates are being shared. So, at the moment we don't have anything major to announce today, but we'll be posting those in transparency notes, um, in Discord, on the website. So, more information on that is coming.

Daniel: Cool. Thank you, Pablo. Uh, that's great. Uh, and actually you've got the next… No. Have you talked about the bank update already on this one? Yeah, you, you talked about the bank.

Pablo: Yes (laughs).

Daniel: You not… Okay, so you've got, you've (laughs)…

Pablo: It's coming.

Daniel: You've got… Um-

Pablo: Bank account this time (laughs).

Daniel: Um, there was, um, uh… next update that I have on the list is a membership recruitment update. So there, uh, I, like, I don't have a huge update to give there. I just wanna say that we are actively talking about how to define the membership, uh, criteria correctly. Uh, we want to be inclusive. At the, uh, at the same time we have… there are some considerations in terms of the, um, uh, like, the, the, size of the membership base, and we're trying to consider all these aspects and come up with the right kind of criteria to include members, bearing in mind that members are, uh, there just to, uh, like, make decisions on behalf of the community, represent the community, and, uh, elect the board. Um, anyone can be in the event, can participate, can collaborate without having to be a member. Um, on… And hopefully by next week, we might have, uh, some clear membership criteria and we can start actually recruiting members. Um, sorry that we haven't managed to do this just yet. Uh, we, uh, really want to, but it's just taking a bit more time than we expected. And Peter, I think you wanted to add something about inclusion there on this topic.

Peter: Uh, yes. So, there's an interesting balance between trying to have everybody as a voting member in the association and having kind of just a smaller association. Um, part of it comes down to the governance rules and how many people we need to actually show up, um, to be able to have a vote of any sort. Um, namely it's 50% plus one. So, if we were to have an association where everybody at Nowhere joined, like 3,000 people, so, so to speak, uh, we would need 1,501 to show up to a meeting just to be able to have a vote. Um, so just, just something to think about. Um, to that end, the thought I've had, at least personally, is more of a representative democracy where we have people that are dedicated members of the community, people that are contributing, um, and active, in, in active ways. Um, I don't want to necessarily exclude brand new people, but you kinda… it's hard to understand a budget for an event like this if you've never been to an event like this. Um, so do you really want to be jumping into detailed discussions about budgets when you've never, you know, if you haven't been to Nowhere. Um, so it's kind of like there's a trade-off there between, uh, what an old boss of mine called believability, um, and inclusion. Um, and it's up to the community ultimately to decide where, where we fall on that. Um, but that's kind of the thinking process behind that. Like, I think if everybody joined we literally just couldn't be able to vote on things, so that would be a challenge, and then the question is where do we draw that line on the spectrum between eight people in the board and, you know, 12,000 in the mailing lists, right? There's some… We need to figure out where to, where to, where to draw that, and, um, that's up to us to decide, so.

Daniel: Yeah, and, uh, a very good point, uh, brought up by Erin about community representation. Actually, we just discussed this in the board meeting just before this. Um, we, uh, all during the election, um, calls made, um, a commitment that we would run another election to, uh, bring more diversity onto the board. Um, we, uh, want to do that. There is a process that we're gonna need to follow. We're gonna need to announce an election, give about, I think, 45 days according to the statutes, uh, and probably we need the members to be, uh, onboarded (laughs) before we can run an election. But, um, most importantly, because what we have is a board that is the board that applied, we need people who, uh, are diverse and representative of the community to apply and want to, want to become board members. So if you, uh, are wanting to, uh, become a board member, please make yourselves known. Let, let, let us know that there are some people who are wanting to apply to be on the board, um, so that we can run an election. 'Cause otherwise, obviously, there's no point in running an election if there are no candidates. Um, and it will take some time. We need to onboard the members first, and then we need to run the election 45… uh, after some kind of notification period. But we definitely care about this. We're discussing this. It will be in the minutes of this, uh, this meeting, uh, the, the, the board meeting that just happened. It is a subject that's important to us. Um, and then finally, we have one more, uh, agenda item about the event name for Pablo to handle. Thank you.

Pablo: Thank you. Thank you. (laughs) Uh, unfortunately I lost my slide (laughs), so I'm just gonna talk about it. Um, basically, um, we don't have an event name that we own. Um, there are two ways to go about this. One is that as an association we buy the rights to the event Going Nowhere or Nowhere Festival from Going Nowhere SL. That's not something that's in our hands, uh, completely. So we want to have an alternative in case we want to start selling tickets. Um, any ticket that we sell would go with an event name. And, uh, since we couldn't come up with any good ones, we would like to make this a community decision. So there is going to be a form that we're going to be sending. You can send some suggestions for what you think this year's event could be called. Um, we're going to be accumulating those answers and a decision process will be made. Um, we haven't decided yet how to do that. But it would be… It would be a good way to use any kind of democratic mechanism that we have. I already see that Mac Festival Face made it, uh, to the list (laughs). So, um, I'll propose that every person can propose three names, um, to name the desert, yeah, whatever. Uh, save your ideas for the type form and you'll find it in a few minutes in Discord, Telegram, and future channels.

Daniel: And, and I think part of the way we're gonna administer this, although I don't want to put pressure on Peter, is that you're gonna need to be registered on the application, uh, in order to be able to vote once there are names. So, you know, this is your call to action, that on Sunday when, uh, Peter publishes the, the app for more broader sign-up, make sure you sign up, uh, so you can, um, organize festival… Mac Festival Face next year, or this year. Um, okay. That's it for the agenda, so now open for questions. Now, there were some questions, but I might have to scroll back up through a lot of, uh, names like Bread and Tomato Burn, uh, to find them. So if somebody wants to grab the mic and ask a question, that would be totally fine while I scroll around. Or… No, there you go, there's a question. "What would GNSL do with the containers if we actually didn't… doesn't get to them? Just storing them for a year and moving them out of Serranena probably costs about what they are worth." Um, I don't think that's a question that we can answer, uh, as it… Like, the… I don't think even the NCA can answer this question. Uh, that's… You might want to direct to GNSL. Um, so if somebody else wants to grab the mic while I scroll up, go for it. No questions.

Speaker H: Um, there's a question in the chat right now that, "Is there a reason it can't be Nowhere, the name? I understand it can be Nowhere Festival, Nowhere Event, or something else Nowhere-related?" That was the question.

Daniel: Pablo, do you want to take this one?

Pablo: Well, technically, the trademarks all for going nowhere, for Nowhere Festival, and I think Nowhere Event. Um, I think just out of cleanliness, if we don't have those, we would want to have a different name, uh, that has complete clarity. But, uh, that is something which, if you feel strongly, you can suggest. Um, it's, it's not what anybody has proposed yet. I think the general feeling is that either we acquire the rights for Nowhere, or we use a different name. We have some comments in the comments, maybe, or other-

Daniel: There is a question about-

Pablo: … Daniela, let me read the questions since you're on it.

Daniel: Yeah. "How big is the probability for a roadblocking obstacle?" Um, I mean, this is a very difficult one to answer, I think. It's kind of a, "How long is a piece of string?" Um, we are doing our best to remove all the roadblocking obstacles, uh, from our perspective (laughs). I don't know if you want to add something to that? Anybody else from the, from the team? Peter, Pablo, Daniela?

Speaker A: Um-

Pablo: Yeah.

Daniela: … something on the containers that maybe it's a discussion we want to start thinking about for different, um, departments. Because a lot of the containers are used for structures. So maybe this, I don't know, brainstorming options of what happens if we don't have them, what are the things that would be needed, and how would those structures look, for example, you know, this year. Like, um, could there be done with other stuff? Um, cabins or… I don't know. Just a thought.

Paul: I mean, I was gonna put this in the, um, in the Discord, 'cause I saw the… So one of the discussions about why ticket prices have kept increasing. And one of the things that is… has been horrific, if you look at the price of, uh, sawmilled lumber in Spain before COVID and after COVID. So that would be a problem for every org structure, 'cause it would need wood, which is inside the containers.

Daniel: Um, okay. Um, I'm gonna assume this question is somewhat answered. And, uh, somebody's asked, "Why the new org? Uh, why, uh, why are we making a new organization that weren't in the first meeting?" Just to summarize roughly, uh, very quickly summarize what happened. Um, there were, uh, a lot of things that happened last year, including a labor investigation that found that GNSL, which has been running the, running the event for a number of years could not… no longer run another event due to various labor laws. Um, there had been… uh, ideas of, uh, creating a different organizational model for, uh, holding the event. Um, there are, uh, some people involved in GNSL went and had a lot of meetings with lawyers, figured out an association would be the best model to do this. They made an election happen, uh, got our boards together, and here we are with an association that can, um, uh, run an event this year and future years. That would be the sort of, like, very high-level quick story.

Speaker J: Can I ask a quick question to this? What I don't understand is, um… I understand the legal case, they couldn't run it anymore. But why is there any, um, like, competition between the two organizational bodies right now, or about what we're gonna give and not? Like, is there any, like, tension or, uh, resentments in the old organization that we… that there's important to know?

Peter: Mm, well, I can speak from our perspective, um, and, you know, I don't wanna put words in the mouth of the former organization or… Not the forum, but the SL. Um, in general, like, we are new. We are brand new. Uh, I think we're less than a month at this point, um, and having come on board a month ago and trying to backfill out all the things that… Or back figure out all the things you need to figure out to run an event for 3,000-ish or 2,500 to 3,000 people is a lot. Um, if I was somebody on the other side of the fence who had built a baby up over, you know, 20 years and had this thing that I loved and cared about very much in my life, I would be skeptical of giving that baby to us. Full stop. Um, and it's partially because we need to learn an awful lot. We have to build out policies and procedures. Um, we have… There are, like, GDPR issues where we can't necessarily just cut and paste things over the fence. Um, so there's, like, a lot of organizational learning, a lot of structural learning, a lot of… There's a lot that happens between the shell organization and the outside world that the 3,000 people in Nowhere have no idea about. Um, and you know, it's insurance. It's making sure people have training to run a forklift. Um, it's having security on site the right days. It's managing the permit. It's buttering up the local mayor to make sure he's happy we're doing the event. Um, you know, it's a laundry list of things that I've become aware of, or at least some of which in the last, like, couple weeks. Um, and you know, we're… from my perspective, I'm the pragmatist on our team. Uh, you know, having to sign off on a lot of money things is part of my job. Um, we're behind, um, and it's an uphill battle. So, you know, the tone and tenor of the conversations that I've had with the SL is cautious progress. Like, they wanna make sure… Uh, you know, my perception is that they wanna make sure that we know what we're doing before they hand over their baby, because that handing over process is one way and irrevocable. Like, they are not… You know, the… As an SL, as… SL is a, you know, a normal company in Spanish-speak. Um, and you know, normal companies can't have volunteers was the primary issue-

Speaker J: Mm-hmm.

Peter: … that's happening here, right? So, having volunteers working for a company is like kind of like slave labor effectively from some outside people's perspective. Now, an association is owned by the people, for the people, blah, blah, blah, and is allowed to have volunteers but still has to follow certain labor laws around those volunteers. Um, and you know, we're figuring those out, 'cause we don't want to get audited like they did. Um, and they've done an awful lot to help us not inherit the things that they've cleaned up and fixed and have gone through. Uh, we don't want a GDPR audit, we don't want other things that have happened to fall on us, um, and there has to be a lack of continuity between their organizational structure and our organizational structure, or else we will just be considered a continuation of their company. And then audit people are gonna show up on the first day of Gate and be like, "Where's your paperwork? It better be in Spanish."

Speaker J: Mm-hmm.

Peter: "Good luck." (laughs)

Speaker J: Yeah, I understand, 'cause they are under… you know, in the vision now. But those people that are in the organization there, why they do not want to join the new association?

Peter: They are. They're here.

Speaker J: Oh, they are.

Peter: They're in the chats. Yeah.

Speaker J: I mean, I feel most of us are here.

Peter: They are. They're in the chats, yeah. They're here. Um.

Pablo: Um, actually-

Peter: And-

Pablo: … I mean, if it would help clarify, can we also show a brief, uh, image of how there are different, uh, um, connections?

Daniel: I think it's while you get your share ready, I just wanna correct, like, 'cause I gave this kind of quick high-level story, and I, like, might have given the wrong impression, and that was really not my intention that, uh, there were, like, lots of legal issues with GNSL. That's not what happened. Um, the only issue that made GNSL not able to hold the event was that they cannot use volunteers. Um, so, uh, they passed all the audits, uh, which actually does kind of bode well if we do end up with an audit on our doorstep, uh, so long as we also, like, you know, do our due diligence in a similar way that everything else can pass the audit. It was just the, uh, volunteer issues. Um, Pablo, you were about to share something?

Pablo: Mm. Yes, I just wanted to show this in case it helps, uh, illustrate it. Uh, but basically this is the GNSL. Um, and I haven't reviewed this. It's from some of my notes. But it's a Spanish SL, which is a limited company. It's owned by a few individuals, which I'm not sure who, uh, there are a few directors which have been flowing, and I also don't have the exact notes, but those include people who have voted for the association and are in the process of becoming members. Uh, it's still active. Um, it has the trademarks, domains, containers, tools, um, attendee data. Um, the liabilities it had is the issue with volunteers, and again, sorry, this is not something I was going to present, but there are some GDPR restrictions that we need to, uh, attend for, learn… always that we can learn from. And that relates to, um, the association which is not technically a nonprofit, although it has some similarities, and so I'm gonna put that in quotes, although I could even delete it because it's its own form. It had about 70 founding members. Uh, directors are eight, and it's incorporated, and we don't have assets yet, but once we have the bank account, that will be a possibility, and also we don't have liabilities. So there are, uh, uh, there are overlaps as community members, but they're quite distinct, uh, from a legal perspective. Um, and there's also kind of a connection in the sense that a lot of people who have been part of Going Nowhere are, are members.

Speaker K: Okay. Um, I'm looking through questions, but I also see that Joao, you have your hand up, so I'll hand over to you to ask a question.

Joao: Uh, more than asking a question, I just wanted to, uh, well, say a few things because, uh, well, I was… I'm not part of the board of the organization, I signed up as a member, and I'm in the process of being approved. I, uh, am not involved in the structure of the SL, but I was a lead at the last Nowhere, and I've been following this whole story of the transition since the ALM last year, where I was first introduced to the details of this whole complicated situation. So I put a lot of time and effort in trying to understand it, and it's still a bit confusing for me. So if you just are getting involved in this conversation right now and you wanna be confused, uh, don't worry, it is very confusing. (laughs) And there has been some developments. Well, apparently, every week, a lot has, has been happening for… particularly for the last few weeks, since the organization has actually been established, members have started being onboarded, but meanwhile, the SL still exists, and I understand that, uh, the, the board members of the organization are trying to be very careful in the way that they communicate information. And for a reason that I don't fully understand, the members of the SL that are here at the call, uh, they are being a bit selective about the answer… the questions they are answering or not. I explicitly asked on the chat if they would be willing to answer community questions, they did not reply to that. I understand that Erin and Paloma are directors of the SL. They are signing up for the organization, they are here in the call, so they would… they have the information regarding the SL. Whether they want or are willing to answer these questions or under what conditions, this is a question for them. Uh, as a lead of the Last Nowhere, I am on their mailing list of the leads, and there has been two important developments this last week is that one of the directors resigned, Jorge, uh, and with a long email about the reasons why he resigned, and then, uh, Erin, one of the other directors, replied with a lot of other information, and she said that she would be willing to take… like, to set up a Zoom call to address these issues, um, and, uh, so while she does reply there's a meeting for the NCA, not the SL. That's why we aren't offering any comments on this. So… but she did, in her words, offer to set up a Zoom call to address these issues, which I… I was waiting for this call to see how it unfolded. I'm gonna answer that email as a lead of Nowhere last year and propose that this call then happens, because there is a lot of confusion, there is a lot of uncertainty, and there is a lot of conversation that I understand that are happening between the SL and the, the new association that, for a lot of different reasons, cannot be shared openly. But, uh, I understand that some other, uh, informations can, can be shared, so I think that while, uh, the, the association has tried to be very open, I think part of the community is feeling that, uh, there's some information from the SL that we could learn that somehow we haven't. So maybe we should try to set up this call and, uh…

Peter: Maybe I can, I can jump here for a minute, Joao.

Joao: Yeah.

Peter: Um, just being a-

Joao: Well, that, that was it.

Peter: Yeah. I know, but just as a little context for anybody that's ever been on the other end of a fire hose, um, like opening up the budgets last week, I've gotten a lot of messages this week. Um, it's a lot. Um, and, you know, the energy here, I wouldn't wanna jump up in front (laughs) of this crowd, um, if… without being prepared. And I think that's probably the way we should be looking at the directors from the SL, um, that, that the community is, is a lot to, to put yourself in front of, with an… oh, you know, with, with very… a lot of… it's just a lot of energy, so it's hard to be on the other end of. Um, and I can, I can understand, and you know, I'm, I'm cautious with what I say here a little bit. It's not necessarily not wanting things to be public, but it's just like, if I say like, "Oh, we're gonna have purple toilets this year," somebody's gonna get pissed off about it, um, and say it, and then that's… this is a lot to, to, to, to deal with when it's the community of people-

Pablo: Sure. Sure. Will be.

Peter: … who are your…

Joao: … I'm not blaming anyone for wanting or not wanting or wanting to do things the way they wanna do. It's just that, like from Juliette's questions, like why… How is the relationship? How can we get this information? And then just to clarify. Uh, the two of the directors of the SL are in this call. So, uh, it's up to them if they would want to then speak up. I understand they don't want, for reasons probably like the ones you're mentioning. But we should probably try to have this conversation as well, and then maybe try to help in this transition process, at least with more understanding and spreading responsibilities and information.

Daniel: Yeah. Fair enough. Thank you. Thank you, Joao. Um, I see VR Planner has her hand raised for some time now.

Speaker M: Uh, I have a different question so if this topic is finished, I can put my question?

Daniel: Um-

Speaker M: Okay. So, I just, uh, start, and, uh, we can come back to this later or just interrupt me. That's totally fine. Um, so first of all, I really have to say thank you. Like it's just amazing how fast things are going on and how professional and all these law things-

Kate: (computer chimes)

Speaker M: … and it's really like, um, I'm so grateful. And, uh, the question is, uh, for Kate, Katie.

Kate: (computer chimes)

Speaker M: Uh, um, how can… How will this process of the decision if now will happen or not, uh, what, uh, you are taking care of for us also and, um, collecting all the information and opinions and ideas? How can we be involved in this?

Daniel: Kate, are you still here? Yeah.

Kate: Sorry. Um, yeah. Thank you. Um, so basically, the, the approach is to really be very clear on the, the statutes on how we should make this decision, and then to make that as participatory as possible. So it's right now currently looks like talking with a lot of people and assessing the documents to see what should be… What are the non-negotiables? Like we've heard a lot about the access to the containers and what's inside them. Um, we've heard a lot about ticket sales. How much is gonna put us or take us out of the red or make this, this, um, event, uh, financially viable? Um, there's other things like, uh, bank accounts, permits, insurance, power solution. But I mean, so it's really important that the community knows about these things as much as is, uh, reasonable because obviously there is a lot of information and we can't expect everyone to hold all this huge amount of context. So it's about, like, really separating out, separating out the non-negotiables. If they're not met, the event is not safe and we shouldn't do it. With, um, so as opposed to the really important to have but can happen over a period of time like toilets, um, Red Cross, security, all those things. And we also need to have like a timeline of like if this is not done by X date, then it affects… you know, it flows on to all other, to uh, all other items. Um, so yeah, currently we're making that list and we're getting lots of input from different people. Then we will design a way to try to get this information to people. We'll design the actual governance process which may look like, um, sensemaking or like a, a citizens' assembly. I don't know if you're familiar with that kind of like process where people come together and they really discuss and sense-make around items. And then from there, um, like a vote, um, that may involve Camp Barrio leads and meta leads as representative of everyone else, but also we may seek to get as much input in that vote as possible. And that might be like, are you… Not like yes or no, are you coming or not coming? But more like in depth. With this information, are you prepared… Are you committing to XYZ type thing. So that we're also under a lot of time pressure because this information… this decision needs to be made really quickly as we've heard in the chat like some people need to know now or very soon about taking leave, that kind of thing. So trying to put some, some time frames on that is difficult. We only started on like Monday of this week so, um, yeah, that, that's what's in play currently. I don't have like the whole process designed, um, but yeah, that's where we're at. Does that help?

Daniel: And, and I kind of want to thank Kate because uh, you're still in New Zealand, right?

Kate: Um, Sydney right now and it's-

Daniel: She, sorry.

Kate: … just gone 7:00 AM.

Daniel: She woke up at 6:00 AM to come to this meeting. Uh, real hero there. (laughs)

Speaker M: Thank you very much.

Daniel: Do we have other questions? There are some arguments going on in the chat. I'm not sure if we want to turn those into conversations. Does someone else want to raise their hand and ask a question?

Paul: Uh, I've got a, a boring question.

Daniel: Go for it.

Paul: Um, it's… So I was, you know, a, a lead for the old organization and I hope I can continue doing stuff and helping with this one. I've discovered Ben's messages to me in Discord yesterday. Didn't know there was a DM function. I'm learning new things. Um, but, uh, yeah. How the… is for if you are going to have something happen this year, how is lead recruitment, retention, transfer, getting new people in going? 'Cause I saw in the Discord some of the, um, chats, the, the sort of area chats have been very busy and some of them have been very quiet. Uh, and one of the ones that's very quiet and I thought, "Ugh," about was Cantina. Um, I don't know if the leads have handed over. I don't know if they've, they've kept coming, um, with the new thing. Uh, but that's-

Daniel: I've seen… that's the thing that, that is easy to overlook, but people need food. (laughs) Um, and yeah, just generally like the other leads from other departments 'cause I don't know what, who, who, who's been talking to who. Uh… (laughs)

Peter: Uh, well, I can throw a little bit out there. I talked to Ben yesterday, um, specifically about the humans thing and its ability to manage teams and have leads in that. That structure is a way to be able to, A, see who's on, who's come in and who wants to help out and kinda self-organize in that way. But he also mentioned that somebody, and I'm, I'm, apologize, I don't remember the name, I thought it off the top of my head, um, has traditionally been our, like a volunteer coordinator to kinda help people get into teams and kind of with that structure. Um, and I think that might answer some of your question 'cause I don't know everybody's names.

Paul: So-

Daniel: So-

Paul: … even in this call I'm struggling with. But-

Peter: But…

Paul: … the, the way it had worked, again, I don't, I, I don't know how you guys are gonna do it. The way it had worked before was you had your leads were sort of appointed by the meta-leads and the meta-leads were elected by its own group when people applied. Um, I don't know how that works in the new democratic structure of, of the, the-

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: … community organization with how you appoint just, just a, a team lead. Um…

Daniel: So there's a, there's a kind of like interesting dilemma there because like, yes, we'd like the leads to elect a meta-lead but we don't have leads yet so, like, how do we start? And I think how it starts will depend on which area. Uh, with, um, participant wellness for example, I can speak to. I was the meta-lead for participant wellness. Um, Ana is the consent lead and Chris, uh, who's on the board, uh, was one of the malfeasance leads. So we're sort of worked out, uh, and, uh, we worked out how to sort of get this thing started and like sort of bootstrap it into something. Um, I think different areas will approach this differently. Um, once we have a structure of meta-leads and leads and so on, there is then a group of leads that can elect any meta-lead if they want to. Um, but (laughs) we need to start with something, and we need to start with something pretty quickly 'cause we need to have an event. Um, so what this looks like I think will depend on the area. But ideally we, uh, carry across the people who are already competent at, uh, operating this area, um, and then figure out how to make, make the, the area, the, the process more democratic.

Paul: Sorry, I was laughing. I, I, I didn't mean to laugh at you. We said we carry on the people who are competent in this area and I just had a horrible thought pop into my head (laughs) which is, "What about the other ones?" (laughs). But, but that's fine.

Peter: No, that's-

Paul: That's all of us. We all don't know what we're doing. We're just bumbling around in the dirt trying to make sure no one dies. So, um, yeah.

Daniel: We, we have a 20 year track record of competence, right? (laughs)

Paul: 21. Yeah.

Daniel: There you go.

Paul: Uh, yeah.

Daniel: (laughs) Uh, just looking at the questions again. Yes, there is a DM function on Discord. Um…

Paul: I'm really glad I'm not the only person who didn't know that existed. That's very comforting to me.

Daniel: It, it, it is, it is, it is a bit weird 'cause-

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: … again, it's kind of separate from the specific Discords. So you have friends and you can have them in many Discords. But it is there.

Paul: Yes. Thank you for being my Discord customer support.

Daniel: You're welcome. Um, does anybody else have any other questions? If nobody has questions, we could finish the meeting earlier, um, and not have to take an hour and a half. So that is totally, uh, you know, possible. But maybe somebody has a question. If so, please repost it 'cause I'm not gonna find it. Or raise your hand.

Paul: Uh, I saw, I'm not asking the question, but there's some, a discussion about the event being smaller, um, which I saw lots of discussion of in the Discord. One of the… in, I think it was the general channel or something. But, um, I don't, I don't know what the solution is 'cause that's been suggested before and has always been a, a, a economic nightmare. Uh-

Daniel: My, my, my current understanding, Peter can speak some more to this, but my current understanding is with the way that services and so on are structured, um, we have certain minimum costs. Uh, maybe we can find ways to improve those. In fact, we found ways to improve already. We can get a 10% VAT rate instead of a 21% VAT rate or whatever it was before. So there's, there's ways that we can reduce the cost overhead of the event and we will find more over coming years when we switch to new sites next year, that's also going to change the cost structure. And there is a strong desire in the community and, and like, and, and the, and the board that represents the community, um, to reduce the, the, the, the price and reduce the overhead which would make the event more flexible and so on. But we can't do everything at the same time. So right now we are trying to sort of like, uh, follow what works, of the competent people who are, uh, who have done it before know works. If that makes sense.

Paul: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's my very lazy thing that I used to do at the ALMs every year which was argue no, try and sell more tickets when it was selling out every year. It was like, increase it, make it bigger 'cause it makes it cheaper for everyone, the more numbers, but-

Daniel: I personally agree. There's, there's different voices and I think there's some beautiful things about, uh, participatory communities. We don't have to agree about everything. Um, and we, we don't have to all speak with one voice. We can have like vigorous, uh, arguments about things. Some people want the event to get much smaller. Some people want the event to get much bigger. Personally, I like to have more art and art costs money. So like, you know, it's nice to have a bigger event. Other people prefer a smaller event for whatever reasons. And that's totally fine. We can all, you know, be together in this community and somehow it comes out in the wash.

Paul: Yeah, I frequently lost that argument. So, um, there you go. Sorry Peter, I'm holding you up when you're actually in charge of things.

Peter: No, no.

Erin: Personally, I'd like it to get so big that I'm uncomfortable being there because it's too many people and so I have to leave and go start my own smaller event somewhere else, all over from scratch, and it's not gotten there yet. I reckon that's probably about 20,000 people because that was the size… 18,000 to 20,000 people 'cause that was the size of my first Burning Man. And I felt comfortable with that number, but I've not felt comfortable with some of the 50 or 60,000 people events I've had. So-

Daniel: But, but-

Erin: Or been to, so.

Daniel: … one of the really cool things that will become possible with the new site is, you know, having more events, 'cause we'll have access to the site all year round. So technically, you could have, you know, the big Nowhere where, you know, 20,000 people go and you can't be bothered anymore, and you could have a smaller one later in the summer or earlier or something. Um, the poss-

Peter: I don't know if we could fit 20,000 on, on 108 hectares but-

Daniel: (laughs)

Anna: (laughs)

Peter: … it'd be an interesting, uh, interesting game. It might also be noting that just the sense that Burning Man had 20,000 people it also has a lot more LEDs, um, and it's a lot more just visually blinding than it used to be. Um, but so back to the topic a little bit, um, just for people that, that care and wanna know, like certain things scale a lot easier than others. It's not necessarily easy to chop the Red Cross's price in half, for example. Um, but, uh, we do… I do have questions because I'm making a lot of assumptions by effectively copy-pasting last year's, uh, expenses into this year's budget, um, as to where some of the department monies go. Um, so, and I don't know necessarily this is part of building up a team just figuring out what the leads are, um, I'm looking for more visibility into those expenses not as in the extent to necessarily micromanage and say like, "Oh, Cantina can't have green peas because they cost too much," or anything like that. Um, but there is kind of a, you know, from a financial perspective, there's a concept of CapEx and OpEx. Um, OpEx is your operating expenses, things that are every year, you kind of really can't really shrink, um, where capital, CapEx is capital expenditures, that's like upgrades. Like we're gonna get a new tent, or we're gonna get a new kitchen, or, you know, whatever. Um, and just from a financial perspective it helps to understand that, um, and be a little bit more methodical about, you know, where we're signing up to operating expenses 'cause those are like basically driven straight to the ticket price and we can't get rid of them. Um, but yeah, so I'm now… Part of building humans was to figure out who the teams are so I know who to talk to to figure out where the money's going, um, so I can have some more sensibility into that process and make that communication more collaborative with the right people. Um, you know, random things like, you know, I get, I get a little frustrated with the, "Let's make it smaller," um, because that's not a thing I can work with and it triggers my autism. Um, but, you know, if somebody wants to say like, "Hey, the, the toilets were this much and if we go to drop toilets it's this much, but that doesn't scale beyond this size," and, you know, I love to have detailed discussions about like where actual things go and, and like that's part of why I'm, I am doing this, although I did not know what I was signing up for.

Daniel: Thank you, Peter. I wanna take the question from Cocci. Um, how do we sell 2,400 tickets at 300 euros when Going Nowhere.org says there won't be an event and we don't have good communication system yet? Um, first of all, I think the price we're going for at the moment, correct me if I'm wrong, Peter, is 275 rather than 300. But, um, how we do it is we need to build that communication system. And honestly, my experience so far is this community is, uh, incredibly tightly connected, there's a lot of communication flowing. Uh, as I said at the beginning when I, when I went on the Barrios chat like, you know, in February and said, "Hey," I like, "I need to get in touch with people," um, I got, like, contact details within like two hours I had contacts for every barrio basically. Um, so, um, people are… Like there's a lot of energy in this, in this community, people are connected. Um, we need to spread the word without relying on the website which I don't even know if the website was really the main way that, uh, the word will spread. We need to spread the word by our word of mouth networks that we all have. We all know people who go to Nowhere or have gone to Nowhere, we're all part of communities where we can spread this word, and that's how we, that's how we get this going. Um… There's a question about… do you feel that's been answered, Anna? Uh… You're muted.

Anna: Yeah, I don't get why the new name. If it's, if it's always been called Nowhere, it's been… It's a community created event that's organically been made by people who've created this since 21 years. And that's… It's gone through different kind of organizations which were essentially like ways of liaising with local authorities, making sure everything is legal, which is, uh, a bone principle. Um, and now that is shifting but it's been Nowhere. It was Nowhere before GNSL, like it's, it's not… I don't know how long GNSL, um, was running the event since that transition after Brexit but I don't see why this transition means we need to end the name of something. I mean, it seems very clear to me it's in the same space at the same time, um, by this community, like GNSL is a, a limited company it is not the community, like that's not what's changing. So I… Yeah, I just feel… It feels, it feels kind of sad to me that it would need to, um… And I, and I don't get it.

Daniel: Mm.

Anna: Yeah. (laughs) I don't get why the community is being asked, um, to, to, um, change the name of something that they create. I mean, I've been around for like, this would be year four, not, not so long, so I'm like learning this. Um, yeah, I don't understand why there is this question of renaming it. It doesn't… Um, yeah, it's, uh, something, something doesn't feel right to me. (laughs) Sorry. Yeah.

Speaker P: Erin, do you, do you want to answer this question? Am I right? Is that all right?

Erin: Um, I mean, I can give a little background. So yes, the event that you guys have all come to know and love is called Nowhere, and it has been run by a few different companies for a variety of reasons. Um, uh, so a company in UK ran it, it was called Nowhere, and then a company in Spain ran it, and it was called Nowhere, and then GNSL ran it, and it was called Nowhere. Um, and yes, it was started by the community. Those companies have always been owned by community members. Um, and up until last year, uh, or sorry, up until April 2024, one of the founders of the event was still one of the directors for the various different companies. Um, so that's not changed and, at all. Where we're at now is because of this audit that we had last year, um, everything has to be worked out very delicately, legally, to try to reduce the risk of a potential second audit being opened up on whatever organization organizes the event called Nowhere. So we have to be very careful about how all of that is being dealt with to ensure that whatever is producing Nowhere in the future doesn't face the same legal hurdles that the SL and everything else has just been through. So it's about risk reduction at the moment so that Nowhere can continue for the future. So at the moment, until it, all of that legal stuff is wrangled out, we have to be very careful about having an event called Nowhere in that area at that time of year, which I know is very difficult for some people to understand and it sucks when you bump up against the wall of legality when we're a community-run event and everybody likes to let that go and pretend the default world doesn't exist. But the reality of the event is that the underpinning and the foundation is all the legal stuff. Um, so basically what is left for the SL to do is to try to make sure that there's a buffer as much as possible before that name Nowhere is handed over to be used again. So it's kind… It doesn't mean that Nowhere is gonna change. It just means that possibly, for a little bit, it might not be called that or something. That's all. But the community is still there. I don't know if that helps or not, or confuses things more, but that's kind of the TLDR version, I think.

Anna: Yeah, I'm still lost in this one, to be honest.

Erin: Okay.

Anna: I mean, I hear, I hear your answer. It's, it seems very clear. It's like, it's the same dates, the same place, the same people. Um, yeah, I understand from a legal perspective that it, that the event is being run by a company, but the event from, like, a burn perspective is run by the community. So I, yeah, I don't know. I don't get personally exactly how the name… But if it's a temporary thing that needs to…

Erin: I mean, hopefully it's a temporary thing. (laughs)

Anna: Yeah. I mean-

Erin: I mean, I hope… I haven't put in-

Anna: It seems very traceable, right?

Erin: I haven't put in this much time for it not to be. (laughs)

Anna: It seems very traceable, like the, this (laughs) this event to, um, to the previous, so.

Speaker P: I think that, uh, I think that's what they're trying to stop is to stop it being easily traceable.

Erin: Yes.

Speaker P: Because-

Erin: So right now, everything, everything that's an issue is traceable back to the SL, not the association.

Speaker P: Yeah. So if you have an event near Sarinena called Nowhere, and even if it's not being done by the SL and the government turn up and are like, "Hey, we thought you were shutting this down. What the fuck? Let me see your documents." (laughs) That would be bad. (laughs)

Anna: I think this is an event that will be legal, like the legal liaison is done between an association and the message was that the, there's one reason that SL cannot run an event, which is because a limited company cannot run an event with, uh, volunteers. But this is an association, so…

Speaker R: There's also a lot of other legal implications like working regulations, safety, um, there's many other areas that legally, uh, an association has to comply with as well, not just the volunteers.

Anna: Okay. I see that as kind of unique to the association, but, um, yeah. Maybe there's… Um, yeah. Okay.

Speaker M: I'm not so involved in the process. I'm just hearing all this now, and I really love you, Anna, for, like, feeling so strongly about this name because I do the same. But I think if authorities look at papers and words are written on the papers, then, like, seeing that it's the same date or it's at the same location, because there are other events in the Monegros that have really nothing to do with this, but if the name is always the same, that I think it's just more flashy in the eyes. I think if there was a strategy to try to, like, hide a bit away and to, like, have the time to put it all up, like, that's how I understood it, you know? Like…

Speaker P: Ants is right in the comments. If the people are the same, the name doesn't matter.

Speaker S: The people are, the people are not the same. There's a strict separation in the parts that matter, and this, this is something we, we got advice on, and…

Speaker P: No, no, no, no, no. I mean the people who are there. Sorry, sorry. (laughs) I… That's, that's not a clear criteria. This can be… Yeah, the community are the same. There we go. Fucking love you, man.

Daniel: (laughs) The elites. (laughs) Uh, anyone is welcome to join the elites. Um, uh, it's, uh, it's loads of fun having all those board meetings. Um, like, please, please apply. (laughs)

Speaker A: Um, it's not pronounced "elites". It's pronounced "elites".

Daniel: (laughs) Join the elites.

Speaker A: You know, like the LEDs? Elites. (laughs)

Daniel: Um, okay. Cool. Um, is there any other burning question? There was a thing from Don there. Um, that didn't look like a question. Does anybody have a final question before we call it a day? I'll count down from five, four, three, two, one. Oh, somebody muted? No. Okay, so no more questions. Thank you very much for attending, um, and, um, I'm really hoping we can publish the notes from this one, uh, very soon, um, the full transcript and… I don't know about the recording, but the full transcript will definitely be on the, on the site, on nobodies.team. Uh, look forward to seeing you, uh, next week. Um, and, yeah, remember, uh, if you want to vote on the name, you'll need to sign up to the app, uh, Peter built, and register as a volunteer, um, as a part… I, I can't remember what the term is. Um, there is a special term for it. Anyway, you need to register there so that you can vote on the new name, so that we can have Eventi Mac event face, uh, this July in the Monegros desert. Um, (laughs) all right. Um, thank you very much everybody, and see you on the Discord. Uh, remember, discussion on the Discord, WhatsApp and so on is for broadcast. Uh, WhatsApp and Telegram and so on. Cheers. Have a lovely day. And Pablo, please make sure that the recording's saved. (laughs)